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David Hochmann

A Closer Look at the Format’s Boogeyman

How Donphan performs against other decks and how we can change the lists on both sides to get better match ups.

01/05/2015 by David Hochmann

Though an article about Donphan was recently published on the site; I felt like there was a lot more to be discussed about the deck. Especially as we better know what to expect at events now that the format is a little more defined. Once you know what the problems you’ll encounter are, you’ll know which tools you need to solve them. If you didn't read the last article, check it our here:

It was written just after the release of Phantom Forces, and there was no discernible metagame at the time.

Robos are so annoying~

Since the focus of the last article was largely about the contents of a Donphan deck; I feel its important to discuss how it performs against other decks, and how we can change the lists (on both sides) to better interact with one another.

The format discussed will be solely Standart.

Table of Contents:
- Skeleton List
- Match Ups:
- Donphan
- Yveltal Garbodor
- Tank Yveltal
- M Manectric Decks
- Seismitoad Garbodor
- Virizion Genesect
- Straight Night March
- Night March Gourgeist
- Pyroar
- Anti Donphan Decks
- My Donphan List

Skeleton List

This is my go to plan when crafting a Donphan List. I start with the cards I feel are essential:

You should add 2 Supporter cards (or a Supporter and a VS Seeker), a Switch/Escape Rope or Float Stone and a Muscle Band or Silver Bangle.

With this being said let's take a look at the Match-ups:


The following paragraphs will follow this structure. 

Right after the deck name will be a number which indicates the average win rate for Donphan (percentage). Then i’ll discuss the general interactions that take place between the two decks, and what options both decks can tech in hopes of enhancing the matchup. Everything is written from my perspective, and is my opinion on how to approach the matchup. If you’ve found different results, or disagree; please feel free to comment and share your point of view.

1. Donphan


Like most mirror matches, once both sides understand how to approach them; they become largely luck based. This mirror more than any other i’ve found, is especially random. The most important cards in the mirror match are Lysandre and VS Seeker to repeatedly get the opponents Donphan active. Cards like Dedenne and Hawlucha won’t really factor at all in terms of dealing damage; but Hawlucha is still decent because its 70 HP and fighting resistance means Donphan needs a Muscle Band and two Strong Energy cards to knock it out. So when your opponent doesn't have a Donphan or Phanpy with a Strong Energy attached in play, you don't need to put Robo Substitute active after a spinning turn! Since Hawlucha has free retreat, it will also be very useful because it can be promoted every time something is knocked out. 

So both player's plan should be to get 2 Fighting and a DCE attached to their Donphan and play Lysandre for their opponent's Donphan with the most energy attached to it; using Wreck to knock it out. While building up this position, your opponent will put first Hawlucha and then Robo Substitutes active and you need to attack with Spinning Turn while also building up the same board.

When your opponent promotes Kyurem? Try not to attack it with Spinning Turn. Knock it out with Wreck, when you know your opponent can't use Wreck the next turn. When you have two Donphan with 2 fighting energies each attached, or your opponent has a small hand with an underdeveloped board, its likely worth taking the risk and spinning into Kyurem. Either he won’t have DCE and Lysandre to punish you, or if he does? He may still run out of steam once that Kyurem goes down. 

So the matchup comes down to hoping you draw more Lysandre and make more energy drops than your opponent! Though, there are spots for taking risks, which you’ll likely be rewarded for if you interpret the information correctly.

To make this matchup better you can run a second Hawlucha to get a higher chance of starting with it, which prevents Phanpy from being knocked out immediately. Also means you’ll have a second copy to promote after using Spinning Turn. Hawlucha is among the least important cards in the mirror match, but remains solid against other decks. One of the more important cards however, is Kyurem. Kyurem can one hit KO Donphan when it has 30 or 50 damage for a DCE, so it's faster than Wreck and you only lose one energy when it gets knocked out. It can be used to KO Phanpy as well, since it deals 80 damage when it has a Muscle Band attached to it. A 3rd or 4th DCE are very helpful as well and more Muscle Band and Lysandre will make the matchup more favorable.

2. Yveltal Garbodor


This Match Up depends on how many regular Yveltal your opponent is playing, and if they are running Hard Charm. Donphan has an answer to most things Yveltal decks can do. Hawlucha combats Seismitoad and Yveltal EX; Dedenne and Zekrom also fend off both forms of Yveltal well.

While your opponent has Yveltal active; attack with Donphan and promote an outrage Pokemon. Zekrom is the best choice since Yveltal is weak to lightning, but Kyurem or Reshiram are also fine. Without Hard Charm, you end up doing 60 damage when you have Strong Energy and Muscle Band attached_. So Yveltal will survive with 70 HP left. Outrage deals 20 + [damage on outrage pokemon] = 70 so you need 50 damage on your outrage Pokemon or 30 and a Muscle Band to KO the Yveltal. Dedenne on the other hand does deals 20*[opponent's energies]*2 = 70 so your opponent's Yveltal would need to have 2 energy cards attached to it or you would need a Muscle Band. As you can see Muscle Bands are very important to deal with Yveltal.

Against Seismitoad EX, Donphan can deal 60 damage with a Strong Energy. The perception is that it’s unlikely you’ll be able to attach a tool before your opponent get's the lock in place. I estimate that the standard Yveltal/Garbodor deck gets a turn two quaking punch around 70% of the time. because they likely run roughly 3-4 Switching cards, and a maximum of 2 Seismitoad ex. Both Yveltal have two retreat cost: they’ll need to either; waste a Double Colorless energy to retreat. or a Darkness Energy along with Darkrai EX when they whiff a switching card. Note that Darkrai ex often ends up being a liability in the matchup too, frequently giving up two prizes to Lysandre.

To come back to the Seismitoad EX problem, though; it’s important to appreciate that you’ll occasionally be able to attach a tool, because you can prioritize grabbing one with Korrina immediately, and attaching it to your Phanpy on the first turn or two of the game. So, on average, you deal 80 damage against Seismitoad EX most of the time; whether with a Muscle Band and Fighting Stadium or Fighting Stadium and Strong Energy. The 2nd hit you can do with Hawlucha which deals 20 damage more than Donphan initially. You’ll of course need the Fighting Stadium and Strong energy again here, unlikely that you’ll have a second Muscle Band down.

Dealing with Seismitoad EX will be the first thing you have to do, because it deals 100 damage with a Muscle Band against Donphan and Phanpy or, 130 with Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank. This means that your opponent will most likely try to attack with Seismitoad EX as soon as possible to knockout your Phanpy and Donphans. 

Also, attaching your tools early isn't a high risk usually, because most Yveltal/Garbodor decks don't run Startling Megaphone. Dedenne with a Silver Bangle is able to OHKO Yveltal EX with 3 energies attached to it. When you attack with Hawlucha, it ignores resistance as long as your opponent doesn’t have Garbotoxin active granting you the ability to two hit KO Yveltal ex. Though, most players will try to get a tool on Garbodor immediately, for this reason.

Donphan can improve this matchup by increasing its counts on Muscle Band, Hawlucha and even Fighting Stadium. Adding more copies of Zekrom and Dedenne, also adds percentage points in the matchup, but may weaken other matchups with the increase of useless cards. A one off copy of Head Ringer can be pretty useful too: especially when you run Dedenne. You can also access it via Korrina whenever you feel the need to, and is also useful against Virizion EX/Genesect EX. Startling Megaphone is a decent inclusion if you are concerned with Hard Charm.

Yveltal Garbodor can run 1 or 2 Hard Charm to make their matchup against Donphan better and like pretty much every deck, run more VS Seeker and Lysandre. Pokemon Center Lady is decent in the matchup too, along with 2 Seismitoad ex.

3. Tank Yveltal


There aren't a lot of differences between Yveltal Garbodor and Tank Yveltal, so please read the Yveltal/Garbodor match up if you haven't already.

So the only difference between the two decks is that Tank Yveltal isn't running Garbodor, but usually 4 Hard Charm and a combination of a few healing cards. Potion, Max Potion or Jynx being most common options. Some people have started running 4 Super Scoop Up and the Scoop Up Cyclone ACE Spec to get rid of damage. More Seismitoad EX and non EX Yveltal are a problem too.

In order to impact this matchup significantly; the addition of Starling Megaphone and multiple Zekrom are definitely recommended.

Tank Yveltal on the hand actually is some kind of anti Donphan deck, but like every deck, raising your outs for Lysandre is important and cards like Pokemon Center Lady and healing cards in general are very strong.

4. Manectric Decks

Before talking about matchups, I should mention that there are four good Manectric decks at the moment (in my opinion). Manectric/Kyurem, Manectric/Virizion EX/Genesect EX, Manectric/Yveltal and Manectric/Landorus EX. Manectric doesn't have any real synergy with the decks, it's just a Yveltal counter and helps charge up your alternate attacker. The only deck that really relies on Manectric however, is the Kyurem version.

Manectric in general

Mega Manectric (whilst weak to fighting Pokemon) still forces Donphan to exert many resources to OHKO due to its high, 210 hit points. You will need a Strong Energy, Silver Bangle and a Fighting Stadium to do so (or 2 Strong Energy and a Muscle Band). This means that when your opponent is able to set up a Mega Manectric ex quickly; using it can still be decent. Nevertheless it's very risky to use Manectric, because the non Mega can be pulled in the active spot by Lysandre and KO’d easily. So just having Manectric in your deck immediately makes you unfavored in the matchup.

w/ Kyurems

70-80 for Black Kyurem EX focused versions
5-15 for non EX Kyurem focused versions

Whenever I discuss Manectric/Kyurem, most people associate the deck with running 3-3 M Manectric EX, and 2-3 Black Kyurem EX (with Max Potions and Head Ringers). I’ve only ever actually encountered one person playing a deck like that (and he got wrecked by Donphan). The only thing that the deck can do against Donphan, is use plasma Kyurem and Lysandre. Though, when the Plasma Kyurem is knocked out; there is no real chance of winning the game.

I tested M Manectric EX with 2 Kyurem NV, a plasma Kyurem and a Black Kyurem EX to win against Yveltal and Donphan (Marc Lutz played my deck during the Arena Cup in Bremen with a couple cards of difference) and it performed very well. Against Donphan, the deck can use Outrage efficiently; also plays a Keldeo EX to OHKO Donphans with a DCE and a Water Energy, and overall handles the Donphan threat well. When you manage to get 3 energy cards attached to Kyurem NV, you can use Lysandre and Muscle Band to totally overrun them with Glaciate.

You have to attack with Spinning Turn in order to KO Kyurem, because when you give the deck too much time it can set up Keldeo EX, your Donphan will be knocked out immediately after attacking with Wreck. The non-EX version of the Deck was designed to win against Donphan, so it's naturally very difficult to beat it with Donphan.

Donphan can tech to win an Aegislash and Rainbow Energy cards, to aid its plan against Kyurem. With Muscle Band, DCE and Rainbow Aegislash can OHKO non EX Kyurems, and the opposition can't use anything with a DCE attached to it whilst dealing with Aegislash. You should run 1 or 2 Switches too, so you can save your Aegislash for later. Aegislash is nice in a lot of other matchups to spin into, as well as Rainbow Energies being decent in creating another attacker in Sigilyph.

The Manectric Kyurem decks should just run more Lysandre, VS Seeker, Kyurem NV and DCE.
DCE is nice in the deck anyways for Black Kyurem EX.

w/ Virizion EX/Genesect EX


Virizion/Genesect has a pretty good Donphan matchup, because of the access to bench Pokemon granted it in the form of Red Signal. With Muscle Band and the 20 additional damage from Megalo Cannon; it can deal 140 damage to Donphans, essentially OHKO’ing them.

Against this deck, it's important to be fast, because you need 2 turns to draw KO their EX’s, and they’ll only need 1 turn to deal with our threats. However, Virizion/Genesect will need the first 2 turns of the game to set up, so you’ll have enough time to setup multiple threats. There aren't any real viable grass non-EX Pokemon, and most variants that included Manectric ex could fit very few luxury cards, let alone fringe grass Pokemon. So it really only relies on the speed of your set up; be fast, and win the race.

When you start the game, don't attack with Hawlucha T2, but try to attack with Donphan. Virizion can deal 70 damage very easily, so attacking with Hawlucha early is a risk. When you use Spinning turn on your T2, promote a Robo substitute or Sigilyph as it’s unlikely they’ll be able to use Red Signal and, equally unlikely they can afford to waste their supporter on Lysandre.

Alternatively, put an Outrage Pokemon active, as they can deal enough damage for a 2HKO after being damaged by Virizion EX. Not being able to dislodge our Fighting Stadium is a big deal, as we’ll have access to it the entire game. We’ll be dealing a minimum of 60 damage with each spin, and likely enough to two hit KO them with the aid of our fighting specific cards.

The average Virizion/Genesect player will put 20 damage on every Donphan/Phanpy, so trying to set up Wreck won't be very useful if your intention is not to be immediately OHKO’d.

Donphan can tech Head Ringer to slow down Virizion decks, and it can run more Hawlucha to use it to trade efficiently. Reshiram can also be very useful, because it deals huge amounts of damage thanks to its type advantage.

w/ Fighting (Lucario ex/Landorus ex/Hawlucha)


Fighting decks don't have any form of energy acceleration, and rely on powerful single energy attacks to grind down their opponents Pokemon. Landorus ex on average, deals 50/30 early game, which is enough to Lysandre up and kill 2 Phanpy. The biggest advantage you have is Hawlucha. It has fighting resistance and can two hit KO every Pokemon EX. It's hard to get rid of Hawlucha and your opponent should be distracted enough by Hawlucha that you are able to set up multiple Donphan, or even one Wrecking Donphan. Wreck is important in dealing with the fighting decks best threat against Donphan; a retaliating Terrakion. 

Terrakion has 130 HP and is a non EX Pokemon. It can deal 90 damage for 2 energy cards, and with Muscle Band and Strong Energy can deal as much as 130 damage. When your opponent drops Terrakion, you should wait until it has one energy on it, before using Lysandre to knock it out. You need to KO it with Wreck, and your opponent won't have anything left to deal enough damage to OHKO your Donphan; Spinning Turn should guide you back to safety, waiting to use Wreck when required again.

Donphan doesn't really need to add anything specific to improve its matchup here. A third Hawlucha could be decent, but the matchup is probably good enough to begin with. Enhanced Hammer is a nice addition to combat Terrakion too, in order to prevent them from using Land Crush after attacking with Retaliate.

Manectric/Fighting should consider running more Terrakion and Lysandre/VS Seeker, of course. More Landorus and Switching cards help a lot too. A cute interaction comes in the form of Lucario EX, which introduces the ability to refill your hand after KO’ing a Phanpy via Lysandre, potentially netting more VS Seeker/Lysandre for the following turn.

5. Seismitoad Garbodor


Playing against Seismitoad/Garbodor can be pretty annoying. The deck locks your tools, Robo Substitutes, and VS Seeker. Enhanced Hammer stops your acceleration too, but the matchup is far from un-winnable. When you have a good turn one, the Seismitoad decks will struggle to defeat what will inevitably become a swarm of threats, thanks to Korrina and Spinning Turn. Hawlucha is very important too, alongside Fighting Stadium which isn't just adding extra damage, but also removing Virbank City Gym. Seismitoad/Garbodor needs Virbank City Gym to deal 130 damage against Donphan and 80 damage against Hawlucha. Without the Virbank City Gym, you’ll essentially be able to trade Hawlucha for their Seismitoad EX.

Against this deck you’ll have to take risks in the early game, too. Play Juniper instead of Korrina to get a lot of cards. In the turns when you can play Item cards use your VS Seekers to replenish your hand of supporters (even if you’ve already used one or have one in hand). Start attacking with Hawlucha while setting up Donphans and promote Outrage Dragons after using Spinning turn. They cannot be OHKO’d, and provide another threat for just a DCE.

Donphan should run more Korrina and supporters in general to set up against this deck. More Hawlucha and Fighting Stadium makes it possible to defeat a Seismitoad, and to stop Seismitoad from knocking out your Pokemon.

Seismitoad should run 3 Virbank in a Donphan based meta game. Pokemon Center Lady is crucial against Donphan decks, alongside a high Lysandre count. If you want to know more about straight Seismitoad/Garbodor, check out Martin's article here:

6. Virizion EX/Genesect EX


The most important aspects of the Virizion/Genesect matchup are already mentioned in the Manectric/Virizion/Genesect segment. Though, because Manectric/Virizion/Genesect will try to avoid playing down Manectric - it often feels like you’re playing against an inconsistent version of straight Virizion/Genesect. Nevertheless, straight V/G has the benefit of some additional cards against Donphan.

Dedenne, Drifblim and Enhanced Hammer being the most common inclusions. Dedenne can OHKO Hawlucha when it has a Muscle Band attached to it, which isn’t ideal for you, because you are forced to KO the Dedenne.

The same thing applies for Drifblim, though its tougher to deal with due to its 100HP and lack of a fighting weakness. It’s also substantially more dangerous, as it can deal a lot more damage, too.

What you can add is mentioned in the Manectric segment.

7. Straight Night March


Straight Night March deals one prize for another, but when they whiff the Lysandre against your Robo Substitute you win a turn. This is pretty much everything this Match Up contains, they can OHKO all of your Pokemon and you can do so as well (on occasion you’ll whiff the KO on a Mew EX, but it is a Pokemon EX so you should be fine).

There is no real need to tech anything for this matchup. Additional stadiums to default Dimension valley, perhaps? A Lysandre’s Trump card to shuffle their discard pile back in and get Robo Substitutes back? Not really needed, but both changes would also be decent against other matchups.

Straight Night March could tech Kyurem NV and more Lysandre. I do not recommend this, because it will hurt your consistency very much; just accept that the matchup is a bad one, and move on. I don't really believe in Flareon, but it could be helpful against Donphan since it survives one hit and deals a decent amount of damage against other decks too. I never played Night March with Flareon, but in theory it has way better chance against Donphan than the straight version.

8. Night March Gourgeist


This is one of the fringe decks you don't want to encounter. Gourgeist is really bulky with 200HP and fighting Resistance. Even when you manage to KO it, you’ll only get one prize card and your opponent wil probably already have a second one ready to go.
Wobuffet is just a bad counter in my opinion, because your opponent will try to Lysandre your Donphan anyways. When you put Wobuffet active, you give your opponent a chance to switch into another hitter and KO it (Wobuffet blocks Celebi EX' Ability so Gourgeist can't attack).

As a Donphan player you have to Lysandre the Celebi Ex and try to OHKO it with Hawlucha. Silver Bangle is a a very good card to achieve this, because of Celebi's 110 HP. Getting a new Celebi can be hard sometimes and most lists I've seen only run 2 Celebi EX. Once those go down, they don’t really have a viable strategy against you.

If you anticipate playing against the Night March/Gourgeist, you should run 2 Lysandre and 4 VS Seeker. Having a lot of Silver Bangle, Hawlucha and Fighting Stadium are helpful to KO Celebi as consistently as possible.

The Gourgeist version of Night March should just play the standard way. Try to always have a Joltik down to get rid of opponents Hawlucha without putting down a Celebi. Don't Lysandre Donphan, but Hawlucha when you have the chance to, even though it can't harm your Gourgeist.

9. Pyroar


This number may seem a little off, but I think that Pyroar is no longer an auto win for Donphan.

Since the release of Phantom Forces, Pyroar got the new Pyroar with the ability to essentially Red Signal your opponent, for the discard of a fire, rather than the attachment of a Plasma. So Pyroar just needs a Blacksmith to get one of your benched Pokemon active twice. Seismitoad EX is a way to lock you down and deal a nice amount of damage.

With just a DCE and the PHF Pyroar, it's hard for you to get Donphans in play and it's easy for your opponent to KO your Phanpys. So the biggest problem you will encounter is that all of your Phanpy will be knocked out and you aren't able to attack your opponents Pyroar. Though, Pyroar can only deal 110 damage so when you manage to set up Donphans you should be fine. The only problem left is that you can only 2HKO Pyroar with Spinning Turn. 

Pyroar has serious problems with it's consistency overall, but also has trouble executing a consistent game-plan against Donphan. Pyroar itself needs 3 energies to attack and it needs a Lysandre every turn; this is difficult to achieve whilst trying to replace your Pyroars.

It is a race to see who sets up faster; Donphan can use Lysandre for Litleos and KO them and Pyroar can use Lysandre for Phanpys and KO them. When your opponent uses Seismitoad you should combat it by using Hawlucha, since the usual Pyroar deck doesn't run Hypnotoxic Laser and Virbank, Seismitoad isn't able to OHKO Hawlucha, so dealing with Toad isn't as difficult and gets you 2 fairly easy prizes. I always try to get 2 Donphan with Strong Energies and one Donphan with 2 Fighting and a DCE, in order to use Wreck.

Against Pyroar, 2 Hawlucha are fine to deal with Seismitoad because most people won't play down a second one. 4 Korrina are helpful to get the Hawlucha while you can't play Item cards and Kyurem was useful to get deal with Litleos in the early game. Sacred Ash can win you the game and running more Muscle Band is nice as well.

Pyroar of course should run 2 Seismitoad EX in order to get one at the beginning of the game. A PHF Pyroar and teching 2 Outrage Kyurem can enhance the matchup too.

Anti Donphan

Well, you can tech against Donphan or simply try to dodge the matchup. Though, if its popular in your area, there are certainly some decks that prey upon it quite well.

1. Tank Yveltal

With Hard Charm and Yveltal

Donphan has huge problems against this deck. With cards like Pokemon Center Lady, Max Potion, Super Scoop Up or Scoop Up Cyclone you can get rid of damage taken form 2 attacks. The deck has good matchups against Virizion/Genesect, Yveltal Garbodor, Fighting Decks and you can tech Shadow Circle against 50% of Mega Manectric decks (the ones which can default your stadiums won't struggle against Shadow Circle, obviously) and against a lot of random decks who can't deal 190 damage at once; this deck can easily do well.

2. Virizion/Genesect (Tobias Thesing’s version)

This is one of the few decks I would consistently lose to while playing Donphan, created by Tobias Thesing. He is the German player with the best Nationals results in the Masters division.

The deck uses a 1-1 Masquerain line and a Tool Retriever to get rid of Head Ringer and use the Hard Charms, Float Stones, Muscle Band and the G Booster more than once and you can get the tool you want to use in the right moment.

Like I just mentioned, the deck is running Hard Charm to prevent Fighting Decks from two hitting your Pokemon. He also has a Deoxys EX in his deck, which allows him to KO Donphans while having a Hard Charm attached to his Genesect.

His non EX Pokemon is a Tropius, which can draw cards, OHKO Robo Substitute when it has a Muscle Band and it has Fighting Resistance.

3. Hawlucha Terrakion Lucario

This deck was created by Philip Schulz; a good player who's running very good decks no one else does (he was the first German player who succeeded with Flygon/Accelgor). This deck is using 4 Hawlucha to KO Pokemon EX very fast and easy. Lucario EX can 2 hit KO Pokemon EX too and it can draw cards. Terrakion is good against non EX Pokemon, especially Donphan.

I lost against him in top four at the last City Championship I played. He used his 4 Lysandre and 4 VS Seeker to KO my Phanpys with his Lucario EX. After I finally was able to KO his Lucario, he already had 2 Terrakions with a Fighting Energy attached to them. With a Strong Energy and a Muscle Band its able to deal 130 damage, so after that move I was left with only 1 Phanpy.

I couldn't attack with Wreck, because of the second Terrakion. I was running 2 Enhanced Hammer so I could slow him a bit down, but he just played a Switch into Hawlucha and kept on charging his Terrakions, I managed to KO the damaged Terrakion, but he just played another Lysandre and I didn't have any attackers left.

My Donphan List

This is the deck I played at the last City Championship in Düsseldorf:

I decided to run Kyurem and Enhanced Hammer against other Donphan decks, and Zekrom and Dedenne against Yveltal. Zekrom was the card I knocked out the most Pokemon with. I drew 3 prizes with it against a Donphan deck, because I was able to KO a Donphan with 2 Strong Energy cards attached to it and use 2 Enhanced Hammer to get rid of the other 2.

Then I KO’d a Hawlucha with Outrage and a Muscle Band, but both Donphan from my opponent had Muscle Bands so he would inevitably deal 120 damage. I got a Lysandre, and KO’d the Donphan, my opponent whiffed an energy and I used another VS Seeker to KO his 4th Donphan to which he forfeited.

Against Virizion/Genesect, I had to use Hawlucha first, so my opponent had to attach a Muscle Band to Virizion, then I put Zekrom active and it got 70 damage. So I used the Zekrom to KO 2 Genesect in the late game, because my opponent kept on killing my Donphans.

I used Zekrom in the first round to KO a Seismitoad EX and I felt kinda stupid, because I faced 0 Yveltal and only 1 Donphan deck.

Having written so much about the deck and played it a ton; I still feel as if there is much left to discuss. Donphan is an amazing deck, with a lot of synergy, and different options available to it. Lets explore them together! 

David Hochmann



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